mam jeden dotaz: co se vam na tom co psal Tajpan nezda? To ze jeden Mustafa spadnul na nejakejch 60 Fokacu, jednoho sundal a prezil?
a co na to Perina se 110-kama nad Parizi v cervnu 1940?
za valky se dejou ruzny veci jako ten nemec jakej za prvni valky pri bitve o Verdun sam obsadil francouzskou pevnost
Upravil/a j4ck41 dne 29-02-2008 17:57
1stCL_Fucida napsal:
Tajpane, z toho tvého toku myšlenek tedy moc moudrý nejsem.
490 stíhačiek LW sa strelo len 200ks P51. Niektoré letky LW prestali existovať. bolo to také little Turkey shots
Kdy? Účastnily se toho souboje také Fortressy? Jak dopadly? Kolik letadel na ně útočilo najednou, nemyslím kolik se jim postavilo na celé trase?
Der Grosse Schlag
plán:
2000 stíhačiek hromadne napadne zvaz B17 a zostrelí minimálne 400-500 B17. Vdaka dostatku paliva po prvom údere , ešte minimálne 500ks Stíhačiek , znovu napadne zvez B17. 100 nočných stíhačiek bude hliadkovať u Svédska a Švajčiarska , aby zabránilo úniku pošk B17-tok.
odhadované starty 400 stíahček 100-150 pilotov.
Plán sa postupne revidoval:
Ku dnu 12. listopad 1944 malo byť pripravených 3700 stíhačiek, z nich 3000 malo vzlietnuť na dané heslo. Hlavný predpoklad pre danú operáciu bolo počasie: Muselo byť "pekne" aby sa takéto množstvo strojov dokázalo sústrediť do jednej oblasti a zaútočiť.
protivník mohol postaviť 800-1000B17 plus daný doprovod 2-3 ku konci vojny i 4-ry FG skupiny USAAF, cca 200ks.
Výsledok
2. novembra 1944.
1100B17 plus 873 stíhačiek USAAF verzus 490 stíhačiek LW.
Miesto ale jedného úderu, boli vlastne dav, ktoré ale prišli velmi rýchlo za sebou, takže sa stretlo 490LW stíhačiek verzus 209USAAF.
Ofic.ver
The Bf 109s of JG 27, climbing to reach the heavy bombers, ran straight into the more than 209 Mustangs of the 20th, 352nd, 359th and 364th Fighter groups which escorted the 1st Bombardment Division.
In their classical chronicle of JG 27, German historians Hans Ring and Werner Girbig describe the ensuing combat as a "turkey shoot". The dispersed German fighters then were pursued as they sought to escape, and many were shot down as they landed. 20th Fighter Group's 1/Lt Ernest C. Fiebelkorn caught four Bf 109s in a landing pattern and destroyed two of them, giving him three for the day and a total of 11 destroyed. Only small parts of JG 27 managed to break through to the bombers. Among those was Hauptmann Heinz Dudeck, IV./JG 27's commander, who got himself shot down by the bomber gunners' defensive fire.
When JG 27 finally had landed, 27 pilots were missing. Another 11 were wounded. No less than 53 of its Bf 109s had been shot down. In return, JG 27 claimed only eight victories, all against Mustangs.
II./JG 3 was no more successful. Its Bf 109s ran into the same Mustangs. 352nd FG ace Major George Preddy called his Group C.O., Col. Joe Mason: "Hello Topsy, this is Ditto Black Leader. Fifty plus bandits headed for the big friends!" In total, the 352nd FG was credited with 39 victories against only two own losses. II./JG 3 lost 23 Bf 109s and claimed only three Mustangs and a B-17 shot down.
However, while the 200 Mustangs slaughtered JG 27 and II./JG 3, the Fw 190s of the Sturmgruppe IV./JG 3 managed to slip through to the bombers. Carrying out a slow attack from the astern, the Sturmjäger claimed to have shot down 21 B-17s in just three minutes. Indeed it was a heavy strike, and the 1st BD actually lost 27 bombers out of 210 committed - a fearsome 13 % loss rate which testifies to the effectivity of the heavily armoured Sturmjäger.
But above all, the effectivity of the US fighters was displayed this day. When the Fw 190s broke off following the initial onslaught on the bombers, they became targeted by Mustangs from all directions. When the battle was over, 22 Fw 190s had been shot down. It is not known how many of these fell prey to the US fighters. Oblt. Werner Gerth, one of the most daring "four-engine killers" in IV./JG 3, perished as he rammed a B-17.
údaje o stratách sa rôznia, ako inak.
LW stratila 120 strojov, 70pilotov mrtvych, 28 zranených.
LW si nárokovala 82 strojov.
USAAF stratila 56 strojov z toho časť od flaku.
iný údaj
LW stratila 133 strojov, 73 mrtvych a 32 zranených.
USAAF 58 strojov - 42 B17 a 16 P51.
k strate LW treba pripočítať aj 4x Me163 od JG400. Nič nezostrelili.
prvý útok viedlo 185 stíhačiek. druhý 305 strojov , z toho bolo 61-63FW190 Sturmbock (zostrelených 31), ostatné cca 240 bolo tkz "doprovodné".
hodnotenie H: Bol to mizerný výsledok. Jenom spotrebovávají práci a materiál.
Hehe, tos mel napsat hned ze jde o cerny den JG 27. Ovsem jednak neslo o zadny koordinovany velky uder a druhak si projdi jak presne ten boj probihal a jake meli Nemci rozkazy. Fakt neslo o souboj 490 stihacek LW a 200 Mustangu...
Tajpan, ten pribeh nepoznam, zda sa, ze miestny Luftwaffaci ano, ale to, co popisujes vyzera na pribeh, ako Bf-109 v stupani nabehli na Mustangy = boli hlboko v pr..li a nasledne boli honeni az na letiska.
A 190-ky sa presmykli popri zaneprazdnenej eskorte, aby nasledne boli takisto zmeneni na lovnu zver vo svojich tazkych a nepohyblivych obludach, ktore samy potrebovali stihaciu ochranu (ale ta uz bola rozohnana a pobita).
Aku ulohu tam hra Mustang? Keby tam hore boli P-47 alebo P-38, tak pri takomto priebehu by to dopadlo rovnako.
Nalet 1174 bombarderu na rafinerie v Gelsenkirchenu, Castrop-Rauxelu a Leune. Doprovod 968 P-51, P-47, P-38. Luftwaffe skutecne zvedla 490 stihacek. Skupiny Mustangu ovsem operovaly pred samotnymi svazy s ukolem zachytavat stihace jeste na letistich nebo na ceste. Idealne se to podarilo v pripade I./JG300 ktera byla zachycena na startu a prisla v masakru o 25 znicenych a 19 poskozenych letounu. Ostatni odstartovali v poradku, ovsem za podminek 90% oblacnosti takze do kontaktu s nepritelem se dostalo jen asi 300 stihacu, navic v rozpadlych formacich. Priprava na velky uder opravu nepreferovala letani podle pristroju a navic vetsinu pilotu (JG27 napr.) tvorili novacci. Dale bylo pilotum namlaceno do hlavy utocit pouze na bombardery (boj se stihaci byl v podstate zapovezen) a podle toho taky vypadal vycvik. Soubor vsech techto okolnosti vedl logicky k masakru. JG27 byla zachycena jeste nesvormovana pred kontaktem s bombardery a uniknou se nedalo protoze drsna pocetni prevaha umoznila pronasledovat jednotlive letouny az nad jejich domovska letiste a tam pak mohli amici jen vyckavat na dalsi navratilce. Nezkuseni piloti mnoho sanci v boji se stihaci nemeli. Samotny utok na svaz byl nekoodinovany a svaz byl navic stale pod ochranou stihacu. Pronikly jen utvary vedene zkusenejsimi piloty a samozrejme tezke Fokace, ovsem jen za cenu ignorovani stihaci ochrany a v podstate sebeobetovani.
Obrazek o tom jakou roli hraly samotne Mustangy at si kazdy udela sam...
Upravil/a WT_Horrido dne 02-03-2008 14:23
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